Conversation Space: The Ultimax

[powersthatbe]

You feel as if you've stepped through a door.

Comments

[favors_thebold]

"If we knew how and why that happened, we wouldn't let it happen, especially to our champions."

[capital_asset]

"...So it's as much of a mystery to you as it is to us." He pauses, then winces. "Belljar excepted?"

[favors_thebold]

"That was different, yes. Both from what I've heard, and technically having seen that disaster unfold now that the timeline's sorted itself out a little."

She sighs. "I tried to tell them it wouldn't work, but... other ramifications of my continued presence canceled that out, I guess. And so we ended up more or less where we started."

[capital_asset]

"I'm a bit surprised people have been able to come back from that," he admits. "But if that was a case where the Arcana intervened directly, then whatever kept them connected might not have been affected in the same way."

He can't quite help echoing her sigh. "And I don't think any of us felt comfortable with the ramifications of telling the earlier Travelers what they were likely facing, in any but the most oblique sense. And even then, there was no guarantee that they would have listened, or avoided making things as bad or worse." He considers for a moment, then asks, "Were there additional changes? Besides the obvious."

[favors_thebold]

"I think the strike that kicked off that whole disastrous chain of events would have happened no matter what you guys said. They were testing the limits of what they could do to affect things, and that was a test I couldn't have anticipated."

There just had to be a better way to answer that test than Moebius.

"The argument that claimed Cephas came later, I think."

[capital_asset]

"Because nothing like that had ever happened before that you could remember? I don't see that sort of thing coming up during Emperor's game." His need for structure probably wouldn't have allowed it.

"Cephas..." He does a quick mental tally. "Hierophant?"

[favors_thebold]

"Pretty sure no one's given you guys this much freedom before." It's been fun to watch/catch up on.

"Right."

[capital_asset]

"That too."

Raidou considers that. "Was Cephas's death originally what sent Hermit to the Grid?"

[favors_thebold]

"You have your cause and effect backwards."

[capital_asset]

Raidou blinks. "That's right - Judgement includes Hermit with Lovers and Devil as his killers. There'd be no reason for them to do that if it was the other way around."

He's quiet for a moment. "I remember there was talk after the initial Grid Jaunt that Hermit knew of three of your deaths, but not the fourth."

[favors_thebold]

"I think originally, the second death exhausted his patience, and the fourth occurred during his captivity. He would've been hard pressed to miss the fact that his leaving would at least weaken Cephas - it might not have been so bad if Vi and MALBOLGE hadn't chased him, but it's not in their idiom to leave that kind of thing alone." No more than it's in Hermit's idiom to not seek isolation.

"The first part still holds true, but with my death undone, we made it until just now without a fourth."

[capital_asset]

"Why did they chase him? I know you're all family, at least as best I can understand it given our respective states of being, but there's more to it, isn't there?" He knows Hermit leaving was unprecedented, but...

"I think at least a few of us concluded that the combination of Moebius, Belljar, and probably the intervening Spark Jaunt as well likely led to Star's death."

[favors_thebold]

"We can only be what we are, and we balance each other. Without Ix, they were worried the boundaries between them would get too indistinct to be meaningful."

[capital_asset]

And that could have been disastrous as well, he suspects. "Has that ever happened before?"

[favors_thebold]

"Can't remember."

[capital_asset]

"It sounds like somebody was likely to die whether or not they chased after Ix. If the two of them had merged, then it seems like one or both of them would have ceased to exist. Assuming I'm understanding it correctly, at least. Unless it works like Ardhanarishvara..."

He shakes his head. That's really neither here nor there, is it? "If Cephas was already weakened, then... had he had a Jaunt go poorly for his idiom?"

[favors_thebold]

Their archetypes have shifted before; they'll probably shift again. Whether a death was inevitable is hard to say, but those two probably wouldn't have been the same afterward. But that's not really here or there, either.

"I'm not sure, but as little as you guys go in for established authority, it wouldn't surprise me if he had." Hakan's lucked out nearly as much as she did playing by his rules, so far.

[capital_asset]

This seems like it would have been a bit different from a normal shift, though, which is why he's wondering.

"Bucking tradition does seem to be one of the things we do best as a group... and in the early days, it would have been even more likely." He pauses. "Especially if he was still alive for the strike."

[favors_thebold]

"He was this time, anyway."

And he canceled out her attempt to warn them of what was at stake if they went forward with the punishment jaunt.

[capital_asset]

"What was he like? I know what the Hierophant archetype is like in general, but..."

[favors_thebold]

"He was Hakan's friend more than mine. Traditionalism and chaos... we weren't exactly disposed to get along."

[capital_asset]

"So your archetypes affect that too... though not to the point where there's no familial tie..." He frowns slightly, thinking. "How did you end up with Tarot archetypes to begin with? Or did you? Moon said once that you predate the Tarot." And yes, consider the source and all that, but still.

[favors_thebold]

"We don't all consider it a family tie across the board." Though that does tend to be the easiest way to explain it to the Travelers.

"Oh, you're wasted on Luna. The archetype situation's a bit chicken/egg, at this point, especially since they've shifted over time - there was a need in the universe, and we arose to fill it. Others expressed that through cards."

[capital_asset]

"Would that make you more akin to a pantheon, or something else?" Though he suspects that's an imperfect analogy as well.

He's not precisely sure how to take her opinion about him and Moon. For now, he doesn't comment. "So it's a matter of how others have interpreted you?"

[favors_thebold]

"Not unrelated, but not precisely the same, either. As for interpretation, that's part of the cycle, but not the whole of how we define ourselves."